Possible kidney issues of CEE

[macro]

I've had numerous blood tests over the years while taking these supplemets with ABSOLUTLY NO SIGN OF KIDNEY PROBLEMS.

why have you had numerous blood tests?

normally blood tests are only done if something is wrong.



you are certainly entitled to beleive that CEE caused your problem, as are other entitled to hold that your beleif is wrong

 

[macro]

If that isn't enough to make you question the safety of CEE in some individuals...or at least admit it's worth looking into

you post up a scan of those tests, will be sure to look them over. However, even then its just one person. If several people had such test results, verified, then it might be worth looking into. Though mechanistically there is no biochemical differences between the various creatines that would cause such issues.

and since there are probably well over a hundred thousand people that have used various CEE's- with almost zero reports of issues on the forums. Well... its just not really an issue...

have seen some reports of kidney pain with various creatines, which is almost certainly due to a combination high protein intake, inadequate water intake and creatine use.

you would also be surprised how much a heavy workout, dehydration, a higher protein intake (even just a single high protein meal) can affect kidney marker values.

 

[macro]

most kidney issues in this arena are related to dehydration and high protein intake, which could be exacerbated by CEE or creatine use. though then again all these things cause markers to increase, markers that are normally caused by metabolic disfunction (here they are due to direct substrate supplementation). creatinine levels will always be high with creatine use.

 

[rjet]

have read the thread on AM. the same conclusion holds true. Either you had an underlying condition that was exacerbated by the CEE (or other ingredient combined with CEE) and not by the other creatines (with lower bioavailability), you had an unusual issue with CEE (or other ingredients), or the third possibility (not listed above) the CEE you got was not pure and the impurities caused your issues (some lots tested at 30% others tested as material that was not even CEE at all).

you said were using CEX which has 3 different formulas, which one? One of those other ingredients, could also be the cause

There was NO underlying condition that caused my kidney trouble. Iwas the3 CEE. We rulered any thing else out.Sorry you were not there when the blood tests came in on multipldifferrent issuses. Did deep my frind, its not to hard to find. I answer is simple. CEE needs to be looked at the effectes it has on many other athletes. We should question the safety Of CEE, particularly with regurd to one's kidney...

 

[jcp2]

What problem would the esther cause? I am not getting this. What would the difference be as compared to regular creatine.

Also i agree with macro on the thread title, so i changed it. I don't think making unrealistic claims regarding perfectly legal products is a great idea. But i would like to see info on other peoples problems with the product, as i have taken it, and will continue to do so.

 

[rjet]

not really. you made a declarative statement for which you have no real evidence.

if you start taking protien, and thats the only change you made, and you get cancer- does that mean that the protein caused the cancer?

if you take other proteins and they dont give you cancer then those proteins dont cause cancer, but the original one did.


know a lot of people that use CEE, not one of them has complained of any issues. Everyone of them found it to be a lot better than monohydrate.


as mentioned above- it is certainly possible that you have some anomalous reaction to CEE, however it does not justify your irresponsible declarative statements which you have posted on multiple forums.

My IRRESPONSIBLE "declarative" .....If that is not the pot calling the kettle black, I dont know what is. Bottom line here my friend, CEE was resposible for raising my creatine levels to an alarming level. One that if it would have continued, I would have lost my kidney. I was taking no other supplements during this time and drinking a ton of water. Cee was the only logical cause. And just to confirm it, I had tests done about 2 weeks after I quit CEE and they came back normal. I then started another cycle of CEE and got blood tests a few weeks in. Again the doctor freaked and said I would have to quit immediatly. I've already explained all this in the other thread you said you read....Now people are coming out of the woodwork and saying they have had similar experinces with CEE. I mean COME ON MAN! Let your agaenda go and admit, CEE could pose a serious health risk to ones kidneys. At least organize some people who would be willing to get blood tests taken. This is worth looking in to if your really serious about knowing the truth. I'm shocked you don't see it that way! Even though you sell CEE, I would think you would want to warn your customers of potential health risks with this product!

 

[rjet]

not really. you made a declarative statement for which you have no real evidence.

if you start taking protien, and thats the only change you made, and you get cancer- does that mean that the protein caused the cancer?

if you take other proteins and they dont give you cancer then those proteins dont cause cancer, but the original one did.


know a lot of people that use CEE, not one of them has complained of any issues. Everyone of them found it to be a lot better than monohydrate.


as mentioned above- it is certainly possible that you have some anomalous reaction to CEE, however it does not justify your irresponsible declarative statements which you have posted on multiple forums.

With all the time you seem to have on your hands, Why don't you use it to research some things. It took me 30 min's to post this and I had a boat load of people responding and saying they had the same issues. I think you need to take your word "irresponsible" and find a mirror, look into it and start repeating it to yourself. Its sad to see someone as bright as I thought you were, defend their point to the death out of shear pride! Or is it the almight dollar?

 

[rjet]

not really. you made a declarative statement for which you have no real evidence.

if you start taking protien, and thats the only change you made, and you get cancer- does that mean that the protein caused the cancer?

if you take other proteins and they dont give you cancer then those proteins dont cause cancer, but the original one did.


know a lot of people that use CEE, not one of them has complained of any issues. Everyone of them found it to be a lot better than monohydrate.


as mentioned above- it is certainly possible that you have some anomalous reaction to CEE, however it does not justify your irresponsible declarative statements which you have posted on multiple forums.

Again, you must be joking...you have way to much time on your hands bro. Use that time to study up a bit more....I think you will find you will gain the respect of many if you do. I wish you all the best!

 

[rjet]

why have you had numerous blood tests?

normally blood tests are only done if something is wrong.



you are certainly entitled to beleive that CEE caused your problem, as are other entitled to hold that your beleif is wrong

Nothing wrong at all. I am requiered to have an aviation medical exam once every 6 months. I always choose to have my bloodwork done at the same time. So I have at least 2 full blood work ups done on me per year.....Not that its any of your business but there you go.

 

[macro]

With all the time you seem to have on your hands my frind, Why don't you use it to reserch some things. It too me 30 min's to post this and I had a boat load of people responding and saying they had the same issues. I think you need to take your word irresponsible and find a mirror, look into it and start repeting it to yourself. Its sad to see someone as bright as I thought you were, defend their point to the death almost out of shear pride!

read through the threads and the same holds true. Most people that experience issues with creatine is due to dehydration which in the case of most people on these forums is due to 1. inadequate water intake and 2. high protein intake. there were some responses on your threads on AM and BB.com that were negative, however they are easily ascribed to the above. None of which were backed by blood work, nor adequately looked at by the reporting individuals

as far as your "super elevated creatinine", not really- thats a normal effect of actually having creatine reach the plasma. this was pointed out to you on both threads by a number of people.

as far as time. you are correct, it is being wasted on you. You have already made a determination.

and just so you are aware, its not pride. You have not supported your claim that "CEE is harmful" to the kidneys in any way, other than to say that you had blood work with high creatinine- which is normal with creatine supplementation.

 

[macro]

My IRRESPONSIBLE "declarative" .....Bottom line here my friend, CEE was resposible for raising my ceatintine levels to an alarming rate. One that if it would have continued, I would have lost my kidney.

your right thats not an irresponsible or innacurate statement. the fact that you cannot even recognize that your statement is both irresponsible and innaccurate, shows how little you understand this topic.

elevated creatinine levels from creatine use and you would have lost your kidney???????? thats a REALLY accurate and informed statement...

do you have an medical literature to back that up.... other than the statements of your obviously undertrained and uneducated physician???

you are right, your not making alarmist statements.....


just to clarify, dont sell CEE. Just worked on the project and the sourcing of the material. If it were to stop selling today it would not matter me, other than the fact that an effective supplement would be off the market.


as a note have had blood work done while taking CEE, though for other reasons, readings for creatinine have been 1.8 to 2.6, thats with not taking the day of the test.

a marker is only a marker, its does not mean anything if the underlying cause is that you are basically supplementing the precursor for that marker...


perhaps some of the statements above have been harsh, though your attack on a good supplement with very little basis is also harsh. If you had other markers that were bad it would be a different story, but it was based on your creatinine levels that you and your doctor made the assumption that CEE was causing irreparable damage, something that neither of you, particularly him should have done. Raised creatinine is due to creatine supplementation, not due to renal strain or damage (which elevated creatinine MIGHT indicate in the absence of creatine supplementation)...

the end

 

[macro]

I would say the moral of the story is if you decide to take CEE, don't over do it and pay attention to your kidneys. If you begin to feel any discomfort in your lower back, stop immediatly.

here you are being reasonable, though the last is a bit alarmist. a more sound and less "scare tactic" reccomendation would be to reduce creatine dosage and increase water intake (accounting for the fact that high protein will significantly increase water need)... most people dont drink enough water.. then if it does not resolve in a day or two stop taking it and/or lower protein intake (many people over do it on protein as well which really can strain kidneys)


btw- at your body wieght (which has been listed at 185) while taking creatine and high protein you should be consuming just a bit less than 2 gallons of water.

you have been saying you were drinking a ton of water... was it that much? (also if in a hot humid environment that can increase water need, as well as electrolytes- usually potassium as sodium is rarely in short supply)

the end part 2

 

[Who is Mike Jones?]

I'm with Macro on this whole CEE issue . . .in fact . . I'm going ot take extra amounts and really try and pound the shit out of my kidneys

 

[joshbeam1]

What problem would the esther cause? I am not getting this. What would the difference be as compared to regular creatine.

Also i agree with macro on the thread title, so i changed it. I don't think making unrealistic claims regarding perfectly legal products is a great idea. But i would like to see info on other peoples problems with the product, as i have taken it, and will continue to do so.

Gud ? I c no difference in the ester either. I've never had any trouble w/creatine in any form...mono, cee or even liquid creatine and neither has anyone i've ever known. Cramps are about the worst thing i've heard people getting from creatine

 

[rjet]

read through the threads and the same holds true. Most people that experience issues with creatine is due to dehydration which in the case of most people on these forums is due to 1. inadequate water intake and 2. high protein intake. there were some responses on your threads on AM and BB.com that were negative, however they are easily ascribed to the above. None of which were backed by blood work, nor adequately looked at by the reporting individuals

as far as your "super elevated creatinine", not really- thats a normal effect of actually having creatine reach the plasma. this was pointed out to you on both threads by a number of people.

as far as time. you are correct, it is being wasted on you. You have already made a determination.

and just so you are aware, its not pride. You have not supported your claim that "CEE is harmful" to the kidneys in any way, other than to say that you had blood work with high creatinine- which is normal with creatine supplementation.

Macro,
I can't believe I have to explaine this to you, but hear it goes...It is normal for ones Creatinine levels to be higher...like say 1.6-1-7....thats even abit to high, but what is accepted as a down side or side effect to the creatines good muscle building capabilities. Good out weighs the bad. But, with CEE, Levels have jumped up to 2.4-2.5! When the doctor saw that , he flipped and began talking about the possibilities of removing one of my kidneys. I explanded to him I was taking CEE and he immediatly told be to stop and drink a ton of water, which I was doing anyway, and come back in a week. I did...my results after being off CEE for about 10 days came back normal .9. No other supplements were taken, water as drank in excess. I only cause could have been the cee. I the 10 years I have been bodybuilding and taking creatine, this is the first and only compaound to give me problems....

 

[rjet]

here you are being reasonable, though the last is a bit alarmist. a more sound and less "scare tactic" reccomendation would be to reduce creatine dosage and increase water intake (accounting for the fact that high protein will significantly increase water need)... most people dont drink enough water.. then if it does not resolve in a day or two stop taking it and/or lower protein intake (many people over do it on protein as well which really can strain kidneys)


btw- at your body wieght (which has been listed at 185) while taking creatine and high protein you should be consuming just a bit less than 2 gallons of water.

you have been saying you were drinking a ton of water... was it that much? (also if in a hot humid environment that can increase water need, as well as electrolytes- usually potassium as sodium is rarely in short supply)

the end part 2

For the guys doing well on CEE, Congrats! For the ones that are having problems, becarful. It can cause problems with your kidneys in some individuals, even if used properly....

 

[macro]

Macro,
I can't believe I have to explaine this to you, but hear it goes...It is normal for ones Creatinine levels to be higher...like say 1.6-1-7....thats even abit to high, but what is accepted as a down side or side effect to the creatines good muscle building capabilities. Good out weighs the bad. But, with CEE, Levels have jumped up to 2.4-2.5! When the doctor saw that , he flipped and began talking about the possibilities of removing one of my kidneys.

you dont need to explain anything. it was explained to you already. such levels ARE NORMAL with creatine supplementation. your doctor is both uninformed and irresponsible for making such an assertion.

with CEE more creatine reaches the plasma which means that you are going to produce greater creatinine waste product- consistently. with monohydrate since most of the creatinine is rapidly excreted (since this occurs with hydrolysis in the stomach) you will not get as high a levels.

just so you understand CLEARLY-- creatinine levels are a MARKER-- since your are supplementing the substrate-- it NEGATES the value of that MARKER

 

[macro]

btw- noticed that you did not answer the questions about your water intake.... perhaps you would like to revise your statement about your water intake being sufficient...

some people can get away with a lot less, you are likely not one of them. Most people think they drink a lot of water, until they realize what water needs are when living the "bodybuilder" life style.



just to be clear, this is not an attack on you.. just on the information, what it really means, and in large part your phsyicians incorrect interpretation and explanation of your results.

 

[adidamps2]

how much CEE were you taking ED?

 

[Durrah]

marco, umm shut up. dont try to over debate the subjec cuz u sell ce2, fact is, i went to a top notch doctor, he said, and i quote "create monohydrate is heavy on the kidneys, the appropriate dossage of water per day while taking creatine mon. would be about 4 litres per day, i do not have much information on ce2 since no signified side effect were reported, however im assuming it would be heavier on the kidneys with the ester attatched"

so marco, in ur face!