Possible kidney issues of CEE

[rjet]

well the nephrologists, and human physiology and biochemistry disagree with your assertions. Had a good laugh this weekend at the beach discussing your "doctors" diagnosis. Just so happens that one of the attendees at this improptu function does nephrology research here in san diego. Have known him for a while just never thought to ask what he did. He said he would be more than willing to contact these "doctors" . So please post their names and phones #'s so they can be passed on to him.


as a note- creatinine in bodybuilders and powerlifters 1.6-2.4 is considered normal , not accounting for creatine use. Thats just high muscular weight and protein intake.

That's very interesting Macro, The nephrologists I saw actually directly disagrees with your nephrologist friend. Oh, and the sports therapist, doctor of sports medicine ect.....all completely disagree.
Post their names? I seriously doubt they would want me to do that on a steroid message board. I know you know that, and your just saying that knowing I can't in order to discredit me. Your pulling out all the stop's aren't you...
Tell you what, you post the names of your neurologist friend, or anyone else you would like to, and I will forward them to my doctor and see if he will contact them. I will also give these names to the Sports Therapist and doctor of sports medicine when I run into them again. One of them, I'm sure, would be happy to discuss this issue with your friend. If for no other reason than to prevent someone from getting hurt by bad advice. Oh, and you can p.m me their names. I wouldn't ask you to post them here.
Your statement that creatinine levels are normal at a range of 1.6-2.4 may apply to 1% of the total fitness population that would supplement with CEE. A baseline Creatinine level in an individual naturally goes up as muscle mass is increased. I am 6ft, 195 lbs with an average BF of 7% year around (this fluctuates 1-2%, depending on if Im preparing for a shoot or have time to do a lean bulk, my weight may fluctuate 5 lbs up or down as well)
My average creatinine base line is .9. My Sports Therapist friend is 230 lbs, around 8% body fat, year around, getting down to 4% BF and around 220 lbs for competitions. His base line average creatinine level is 1.1.
I'm not saying that some professional bodybuilders that tip the scale at around 300 lbs or some pro power lifters that weight 400lbs won't have a baseline creatinine level somewhere in the range that you listed (although I seriously doubt its anywhere near 2.4), but again, that makes up less than 1% of the fitness population that would take CEE. Your comparing apples to oranges.
If your suggesting that most people reading this thread should not be alarmed if their creatinine levels were in the range you listed....please re think your statement. Levels that high in MOST athletes would be very dangerous and reason for concern.
Macro, come on. You are someone who clearly has influence in the fitness realm. Think about what you tell people and how it comes across. Your being very irresponsible with your influence IMHO.
Glad you had a good laugh with your friends...

 

[macro]

the term is nephrologist.

Creatinine is a marker for glomular filtration rate, higher creatinine levels in bodybuilders, meat eaters, high protein dieters and creatine users is not an indicator of reduced glomular filtration. stop wasting your time and others with this fantasy of all the doctors, sports therapists, etc that you have consulted with.

wont even waste time on the rest of the nonsense you just posted.

 

[macro]

Glad you had a good laugh with your friends...

yes your alarmism and demands that your assertions be taken as facts, spun with a bit of flavor did get a chuckle.

but really the basic story of your cry foul on CEE is not really funny. It was more a laugh at how rediculous it was.

 

[rjet]

yes your alarmism and demands that your assertions be taken as facts, spun with a bit of flavor did get a chuckle.

but really the basic story of your cry foul on CEE is not really funny. It was more a laugh at how rediculous it was.

It is rare that I come across someone with such a very thick skull.
I guess that everything I experienced was a complete coincidence, everything that others have experienced is a complete coincidence, the doctors with all their expertise are all wrong, and you....self proclaimed expert, are right.....I'm waiting for your book entitled "The Earth is Flat".
I usually don't bother arguing with people, but I expected more from you as a moderator and someone people look to for advice. At least to encourage others to get informed and form their own conclusions.

Here is a post by BK on Bodybuilding.com.
Originally Posted by Anssi Manninen
I would not recommed CEE until its safety and effectiveness is established. So, stick with creatine monohydrate.


This is very pragmatic and solid advice, Anssi.

I might also add the elevation in creatinine is NOT seen with the orotate
or gluconate or malate salts. So they are "probably" safe too.

SizeOn showed no adverse elevations in plasma creatine with 28 days
use in 10 guys in the ORG study.

BK
I thought you and everyone else might find it interesting...I would encourage you and others to check out the threads addressing this issue on anabolic minds and Bodybuilding.com. I know you say you have Macro, so I'm directing this more towards others. Although, you may want to rethink you position on the addition of Malate to CEE you posted earlier.
Here is a link to both threads if anyone is interested:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=835445
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/46205-kidney-trouble-cee-creatine-ethyl-ester.html

At least you had a good "Chuckle".....

 

[macro]

talk with yourself, if you are now using bruce kneller to support your assertions. especially with the cocommitant sales pitch for his sizeON.

once again, same old shit with no basis.

see the thing here, is time is being wasted on you.

saying that someone is thickskulled because they dont accept your liturgy as fact is assinine.

goodbye.

 

[rjet]

talk with yourself, if you are now using bruce kneller to support your assertions. especially with the cocommitant sales pitch for his sizeON.

once again, same old shit with no basis.

see the thing here, is time is being wasted on you.

saying that someone is thickskulled because they dont accept your liturgy as fact is assinine.

goodbye.

Your thick skulled because your turning a blind eye to an obvious POSSIBLE problem with CEE. I can only guess it to be because you sell it, or sheer pride. I hope it's the latter. I would hate to think your stating all of this purely for financial gain.
And for the record, I'm not using BK for anything. I simply stated what he wrote. He, like you, has financial interest in this. He is promoting his product. He also has a lot of wisdom to offer and a seemingly open mind. That's more than I can say for you at this point.
You chose to "waste your time", not me. Don't get angry at me for your decision to post on this thread.
As before, I wish you the best and will be looking for those names in my PM box should you decide to send them....goodbye.

 

[macro]

that their might be issues with CEE or any form of creatine is possible, the issue you claim to have presented is not obvious. You have in no way substantiated that CEE caused you to have any problems (though in theory it could have or any other supplement for that matter). what you have presented OVER AND OVER again is creatinine #'s that are not unusual and are not indicative of a problem.

that is all that has been said here. You made a claim based on #'s that dont mean anything. If you had some other reason or test that showed issues then that could be discussed.

your lack of the most basic understanding of this topic has made any discourse impossible, with you essentially falling back on the multitude of fantasy experts that you have consulted.

 

[macro]

btw- consider it very important the people like you who try to stir up fear without any basis be challenged. you have been all over the forums with a # of differing stories about your "problems". with just creatinine #'s (not even verified).

dont really care for scare mongers, and that is what you are. if you had wanted to discuss and not just push your anti-CEE agenda this conversation would have gone differently.

 

[rjet]

btw- consider it very important the people like you who try to stir up fear without any basis be challenged. you have been all over the forums with a # of differing stories about your "problems". with just creatinine #'s (not even verified).

dont really care for scare mongers, and that is what you are. if you had wanted to discuss and not just push your anti-CEE agenda this conversation would have gone differently.

Marco, once again, I stand in awe at your comments...this would actually be amusing if it weren't so sad.
My claims on CEE were based on kidney pain...not lower back pain, blood test results, and a sonogram. Did your even read the thread I started on AM explaining this? If you did, read it again to refresh your memory. You completely missed the basis for my claim.
I have no "anti-CEE" agenda. I actually like the effects of CEE. It took multiple blood tests, and a kidney swelling up to twice it's normal size for me to realize their was a problem...one that, after ruling out any other possibility (please see the thread to see the process I went through in ruling out other possibilities), was caused by CEE.
I'm not here to scare ANYONE! I've said time and time again that I don't believe everyone, or even most people, will respond the way I did. I do believe however, that SOME may, and therefore the reason I posted this thread.
These are not "scare tactics" on my part. I can't believe you would put someone down simply for posting their experience.
It is people like you that are causing the government to try and regulate our supplements. With all the new supplements coming out, none of which have been tested for safety, we need to keep each other informed. If we all just turn a blind eye to possible health risks, and stop sharing our experiences on boards like this, many people may have unnecessary health issues. This is when the government, with all of it's wisdom (ha ha), steps in and starts to regulate substances. They think we aren't smart enough to make a decision on or own what we put in our bodies. They see an opportunity to make money, and they come out with new laws banning whatever they see fit citing different people how have had health complications as there justification. Your just helping them make their case.
If we communicate with each other, we can all make a more informed decision on what we put in our bodies. This may reduce many potential health problems and not give the government any more fuel. I think we can both agree that they have no business telling us what we can and can not but in our bodies. (that's my attempt to bond with you;-)
I am NOT for banning CEE. To the contrary, I think it may very well be a supplement many can benefit from safely. Threads like this just warn people of the potential danger and allow them to keep an eye our for problematic symptoms. Take steroids for example. When they were first introduced to bodybuilding, no one had a clue how to use them safely. This lead to many serious health problems and even some unnecessary deaths. We now have a ton of information we can use to hopefully minimize their health risks and maximize the benefits should one decide to take them. (I realize their are some who think the safe use of steroids is an oxymoron, but at least we have information to use them "SAFER" than we had initially)
I had someone on another board tell me that he was experiencing what he thought was kidney pain while taking CEE. He was taking 2.5 grams before and 2.5 grams after his workouts for a total of 5 grams per day. After reading my post he decided to reduce his intake to 1.5 grams before and 1.5 grams after his workouts, and not take any on non training days. Within a week his pain subsided.
I mention this simply to point out that threads like this may lead to finding out the safest way to take different supplements. Ways that maximize their effectiveness while minimizing any possible side effects.
If you interpret all this as "trying to stir up fear", I'm sorry Macro. That is not my intention. What on earth would I have to gain by that approach? Your the only one in a position to benefit from your stance on this.

 

[rjet]

This was just posted on bodybuilding.com by the Senior Science Editor for Muscular Development....

I would not recommend CEE until its safety and effectiveness is established. So, stick with creatine monohydrate.
__________________
Anssi Manninen, M.H.S.(sportsmed)
Senior Science Editor
Muscular Development

Opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of Muscular Development´s publisher

Learn the Facts About Nutrition & Metabolism:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com

My latest articles: http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jjhulmi/artikkelit.htm

Not a scare tactic Macro, just a responsible position by someone in an influential spot.

This was just posted by BK:

This has been an interesting thread. Regardless of whether you think CEE
is manna from heaven or poison in a bottle there is absolutely a direct
correlation between CEE ingestion, even at small (3g per day) dosing and
a pretty significant increase in plasma creatinine (a biological waste product
that needs to be excreted by the kidneys). At this point, it is impossible
to know what the exact "mechanism" causing the increased creatinine is or
is not. I have several postulations (and this is not an 'end all' list) -

1) CEE somehow interferes with one or more of the CPK isoenzymes. This
would be VERY bad - especially if one took big doses of CEE for a long time.
While this is possible, I doubt it is really what is going on here. But
nobody knows.

2) CEE somehow can cause a doubling of intracellular creatine levels
almost immediately. While this would be really nice...it is also doubtful.

3) CEE somehow is spontaneously metabolized into creatinine - VERY FAST -
once hitting the blood stream - thereby rending most of it useless.
Possible. Very possible. But again, not known for sure.

So what do we know for sure? CEE use is associated with an increase
(usually a doubling but in some cases, a tripling) of plasma creatinine
levels almost immediately after ingestion. Creatinine is a waste
product and "doubling" it means your kidneys need to work a little
harder (or a lot harder - I suppose it is a perspective issue) trying to
excrete this into urine.

It probably, but not for sure, is not a huge deal if you use CEE for a few
weeks and then take the same time or longer off. If you have a kidney
disorder or some other metabolic problems, then it probably is not a good
idea to use this stuff.

Then again, (pimp mode on) SizeOn does not contain ANY CEE and you'd
avoid the issue altogether by using that product. Or you could use
MAN CLOUT which has creatine orotate in it. Or if you are a cheap
bastard...just find a good micronized creatine monohydrate and use that
instead. Just being honest here - I would not use CEE under any
circumstances and I have perfectly healthy kidneys. At least not until
more is known why this type of creatine and not others is associated
with a dramatic rise in plasma creatinine levels.

Be kind to your kidneys and they will be kind to you!


BK

As you can see, he is not hiding the fact that he is promoting "SizeON". He is very sraight forward with it. But at the same time, he brings up interesting points...

 

[rjet]

Macro, I apologize for calling you "Thick Skulled". Even though it's obvious I feel that way, I should not have made it a public personal attack. That was uncharacteristic of me and a mistake on my part. No need to reply to that, I was just feeling guilty for stooping to that level.

 

[macro]

This was just posted on bodybuilding.com by the Senior Science Editor for Muscular Development....

I would not recommend CEE until its safety and effectiveness is established. So, stick with creatine monohydrate.
__________________
Anssi Manninen, M.H.S.(sportsmed)
Senior Science Editor
Muscular Development

well aware of him.
masters in health sciences does not make him an expert on either nephrology nor biochemistry. reccomending against CEE on the basis of lack of research means reccomending against every form of creatine other than monohydrate. It also means recommending against 99% of the sports supps sold today.

with respect to BK
once again no evidence for any of his theoretical musings. and his knowledge of this area is even less. though always impressed with his ability to pimp

 

[macro]

I had someone on another board tell me that he was experiencing what he thought was kidney pain while taking CEE. He was taking 2.5 grams before and 2.5 grams after his workouts for a total of 5 grams per day. After reading my post he decided to reduce his intake to 1.5 grams before and 1.5 grams after his workouts,

you are right 5 grams is too much CEE, and if it was bulk powder it was probably more than 5 grams, only an idiot (like most people who write the labels for supp companys) would reccomend that much as its more than most can absorb and will increase water needs.

500mg/40lbs of lean mass is moderate to high end dosing reccomendation. (its the reccomendation on PureCEE).

however as stated before, kidney pain because of dehydration (because of excess CEE or any creatine intake- usually combined with high protein intake- and poor water intake) and higher creatinine levels are not indicative of there being any issue with CEE.

again as stated over and over again, its a spurious correlation.


now these are not exact reflections.. some are quite different.. however.. they get the point across
if you tookin 500 grams of protein and drank 4 liters of water per day, soon your kidneys would hurt as well. Is the protein to blame or your misuse of it as well as poorly adjusted water intake?

if you take 5 grams of tylenol in a day, instead of the max 2.4 grams reccomended. Did tylenol affect your liver or did you?

if you drank 4 gallons of water and drowned, was it the water?

if you took 40 grams of creatine. instead of 20g?

etc..
etc..

btw- the creatinine issue still stands as being non correlative. The kidney pain issue as mentioned before is due to intake and combination factors(protein/Water/etc), not to the CEE itself.

 

[rjet]

well aware of him.
masters in health sciences does not make him an expert on either nephrology nor biochemistry. reccomending against CEE on the basis of lack of research means reccomending against every form of creatine other than monohydrate. It also means recommending against 99% of the sports supps sold today.

with respect to BK
once again no evidence for any of his theoretical musings. and his knowledge of this area is even less. though always impressed with his ability to pimp

I never said he was an expert in Nephrology or biochemistry, all though he may very well be. I have not idea what his knowledge in those two fields are. I would not be so quick to dismiss his thoughts though. He is obviously well known and respected in the industry. His opinions are worth taking to heart.

BK is a businessman like yourself. His ability to "pimp" is what got him into the position he is in today. Nothing wrong with that.
He also is someone who has been around for a while and does have insightful things to offer. He never said his statements were backed by any hardcore evidence. He in fact pointed out that they were simply his thoughts. That said, there is no hardcore evidence against what he offered either. Again, I would not be so quick to dismiss his opinions and contributions to this topic.

 

[rjet]

you are right 5 grams is too much CEE, and if it was bulk powder it was probably more than 5 grams, only an idiot (like most people who write the labels for supp companys) would reccomend that much as its more than most can absorb and will increase water needs.

500mg/40lbs of lean mass is moderate to high end dosing reccomendation. (its the reccomendation on PureCEE).

however as stated before, kidney pain because of dehydration (because of excess CEE or any creatine intake- usually combined with high protein intake- and poor water intake) and higher creatinine levels are not indicative of there being any issue with CEE.

again as stated over and over again, its a spurious correlation.


now these are not exact reflections.. some are quite different.. however.. they get the point across
if you tookin 500 grams of protein and drank 4 liters of water per day, soon your kidneys would hurt as well. Is the protein to blame or your misuse of it as well as poorly adjusted water intake?

if you take 5 grams of tylenol in a day, instead of the max 2.4 grams reccomended. Did tylenol affect your liver or did you?

if you drank 4 gallons of water and drowned, was it the water?

if you took 40 grams of creatine. instead of 20g?

etc..
etc..

btw- the creatinine issue still stands as being non correlative. The kidney pain issue as mentioned before is due to intake and combination factors(protein/Water/etc), not to the CEE itself.

Maybe we are finding some middle ground here...

I agree, too much CEE, Creatine Mono, to little water, to much protein ect....all can cause kidney problems. Not necessarily because of the substance, but because of the misuse of the substance. That may very well be the case with many CEE users experiencing kidney issues...they are using it without knowing HOW to use it.....(a bit redundant but you get my point). That was what I was pointing out a few postings back.

That said, I have had kidney issues on CEE while being properly hydrated and taking a very conservative dose. Initially, when CEE first hit the market, I WAS taking in too much. However, even after taking a break, and then supplementing again with CEE, at a much lower dose (2.5-3 grams per day), and upping my water intake from 1.5-2 gallons per day to 2.5-3 gallons per day (depending on my training), I still had problems. It was interesting to me to note that I did not have these problems on any other form of creatine, even at higher doses.

That was my experience. As I said, I'm sure many who experience problems with CEE can remedy them simply by reducing their intake. I also believe, however, that their are those who will respond negatively, like I did, regardless of the amount ingested.

As far as a high creatinine level (high being specific to the individual and their baseline) indicating the kidneys are working harder than normal while supplementing with CEE...we are going to have to agree to STONGLY disagree with each other.

As I said before, it is normal for creatinine levels to rise with creatine supplementation. A lot of people accept the fact that the kidneys are going to work slightly harder, as long as it doesn't reach a harmful level. (benefit out weighs the cost) But if creatinine levels rise too high, your kidneys will pay the price over time.

Again, we must just agree to disagree about this...People can take the information here, do their own research, and draw their own conclusions.