Possible kidney issues of CEE
- Thread starter rjet
- Start date
rjet
Always Learning
Ok Macro, now I know you really have not done your homework. A high Creatinine level IS normal while supplementing with creatine. That does NOT mean, however, that your kidney isn't working harder. To the contrary, it means that your kidney IS working harder....we just accept it as long as it doesn't get out of control and reach a harmful level.(usually around 1.8 doctors consider it harmful) This is why most manufacturers and sports theropists recommend cycling creatine to give your kidneys a break. This is also why a few companies have started making CEE with Maltate attached to it. The maltate prevents it from converting to creatinine in the kidneys making it MUCH less stressful on them. The problem I have with CEE by itself is that it converts to creatinine to a MUCH GREATER degree than all other forms of creatine. This explains why I had kidney issues on CEE and no other form or creatine. It also would explain the many other people who have claimed to have possible kidney issues on CEE and no other form of creatine.macro said:
I would ask you not to take my word for it, but ask a doctor or better yet a sports nutritionist or theropist the effect of creatine on kidneys. You will find that a higher creatinine level does mean your kidneys are working much harder.
Listen, I apologize for getting off on the wrong foot with you. I think many people think the way you do about creatine and particularly CEE, that's why I started this post. I wanted to inform poeple about the possible dangers so they may avoid going through what I did. I do respect your opinion and I'm sure you have a vast amount of information we could all learn from, myself included. I do wish you all the best.
rjet said:
this is not accurate. its a sales pitch. neither the ethyl ester nor the addition of malate will have any impact on creatinine levels other than they increase amount of creatine that reaches the plasma. Malate is supposed to increased survivability to plasma (which would reduce hydrolysis, which would reduce creatinine spike- though the ethyl ester alone does this).
monohydrate undergoes extensive hydrolysis, spiking creatinine levels.
rjet said:
this is again not accurate, monohydrate BY FAR produces the greatest levels of creatinine (in the form of a spike).
CEE because it delivers significantly more creatine to the plasma and the muscle which then results in more creatinine byproduct evenly released into the plasma. This is a very normal effect of having high cellular creatine levels. the higher the cellular creatine levels the greater the byproduct.
if you were to take a test right after (60-90min) taking monohydrate and right after taking CEE your creatinine levels with monohydrate would be sky high.
the more effective a creatine, the greater the cellular uptake the greater the even plasma release of creatinine by product will be.
rjet said:
higher plasma and cellular creatine means greater water needs. CEE is not the issue, its hydration. the combination of high protein, high plasma creatine and insufficient water intake can lead to kidney pain and irritation in some individuals. IMHO this is the most common experience, most often found in users with way to high protein intake as well as using 6 grams of CEE or more a day- sadly have seen some sites reccomending up to 10 grams as well as pushing the 2 or more grams protein/lb of bodyweight. 2-3 grams CEE is more than enough for most users. 1 to 1.5 grams protein is more than sufficient unless using copious amounts of gear.
rjet said:
no need for an apology. You beleived, and may still fully beleive, that your assertion was correct. Just as the information presented counter is IMHO a more accurate and correct view.
you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the issue with the wording is where some harshness was evidenced. As again IMHO that wording was not appropriate. Though understand your position, just a bit unsettled by the presentation.
rjet
Always Learning
Macro, we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this. The wording on this was harsh, yes, but still respectful. It may have come across a bit dumbfounded and shocked by your responses, but respectful just the same.macro said:
I think we can stop the debate. People can form their own opinons, as we have, based on their own research. I feel I would be irresponsible though not to say that, IMHO, I think you are completely wrong on this issue and would urge you to seek the advice of some Sports theropists. I'm pointing you to doctors and specalists who know sports medicine and are up to date on the latest supplements, since you don't put much value in the opinions of medical doctors. What you seem to be basing your opionions on are ads and/or literture put out by supplement companies. I have talked with a few doctors specializing in sports medicine and a few medical doctors. That is where I came up with my conclusions. Well, that and my blood tests. Believe me, when a doctor tells you that removing a kidney is a possibility if it does not improve, you will begin to seek out all the advice and information you can.
To address the issue of hydration you keep bringing up, I posted my water intake during each cycle of CEE I referenced, in my original posts over on Anabolic Minds. Go check it out. I think you will find that I was not over or under hydrated. I do agree with you however, that Hydration is very importain while supplementing with CEE or any other form of creatine. And yes, one can get over hydrated, causing trouble with kidneys. You bring up a good point with this, one that many are unaware of.
If you still choose to hold to your opinion about CEE, I respect that. I would just say consider your influence on others and at least give them the respect of informing them that their is other opinions out their that STRONGLY disagree with you. Let them know that it's worth doing some research on. In the event that you find out one day I was right, it may save some people from suffering the same kidney issues I did.
Again, I have no agenda here other than to warn people of the possible health complications with CEE supplementation. Please remember that before you are so quick to try and discredit my position. I also would ask you to be more responsible and respectful of those who are truely experts in the medical field. They certainly are not Gods and they do make mistakes, but I would put a little more thought into it before stating that they are all misinformed and you are correct. They have more knowledge on the human body than you or I ever will.
just to be clear, the opinions here in are based on science, not advertisements.
now am going to take offense, since you have implied lack of knowledge- which is in fact YOUR problem in this discussion.
your assertions and opinions were discredited because they had no merit and were based on erroneous interpretations of your test results as well as you and your doctors complete lack of understanding of creatine metabolism.
you made absolutely no cogent or coherent arguement during this discussion, just the half assed opinions of your private physician.
so please, dont try to act as though you are doing anyone a favor here. A favor was done for you, explaining the actual causes of your results and what they mean. The fact that you have chosen to ignore this is your loss.
and know just a little more about biochemistry than any of your physicians. Its really quite sad how well you have been indoctrinated to beleive that doctors are experts... most doctors are idiots... very few of them have any understanding of medicine or biology outside of their own specific area of expertise. Very few are equipped to deal with any results or findings that are not in line with illness. (the case here, a marker that indicates a problem that is due to supplementation of that markers substrate) There are exceptions to the narrow minded doctor, but they are few and far between.
now am going to take offense, since you have implied lack of knowledge- which is in fact YOUR problem in this discussion.
your assertions and opinions were discredited because they had no merit and were based on erroneous interpretations of your test results as well as you and your doctors complete lack of understanding of creatine metabolism.
you made absolutely no cogent or coherent arguement during this discussion, just the half assed opinions of your private physician.
so please, dont try to act as though you are doing anyone a favor here. A favor was done for you, explaining the actual causes of your results and what they mean. The fact that you have chosen to ignore this is your loss.
and know just a little more about biochemistry than any of your physicians. Its really quite sad how well you have been indoctrinated to beleive that doctors are experts... most doctors are idiots... very few of them have any understanding of medicine or biology outside of their own specific area of expertise. Very few are equipped to deal with any results or findings that are not in line with illness. (the case here, a marker that indicates a problem that is due to supplementation of that markers substrate) There are exceptions to the narrow minded doctor, but they are few and far between.
rjet
Always Learning
Macro, you would have been arguing the world was flat hundreds of years ago, even after people sailed around it.macro said:
I am basing my conclusions on:
Blood test results
Sonogram results
Years of experince with many other forms of creatine,
Medical Doctors (who I realize you feel you are much smarter than)
Doctors specalizing in Sports Medicine
Sports theropists
I have no agenda and no reason to post this other than to warn others of the possible dangers and side effects of CEE supplementation. Your suggesting otherwise I take as direct insult. I would ask you what I have to gain from making any of this up? Absoulutly nothing. My time is much more valuable than that.
You on the other hand, you sell CEE and would have a big financial interest in defending your position. I just can't believe you are so adamit about it when you are so blatently wrong. You only would have to scratch the surface to find out that an increase in ones creatinine level DOES infact equate to ones kidney working harder. Your logic about it being normal during creatine supplementation is only half way true. It is normal for ones creatinine level to increase on creatine, but that IS indicating that the kidneys are indeed working harder. We just accept that in order to reap the benifits creatine has to offer....pros out wiegh the cons. Once your creatinine levels reach a harmful state, as was the case with me due to CEE, your kidneys are at risk.
I have used various forms of creatine for years with no problems. CEE was the only form to give me trouble. I didn't believe, as you don't, it was CEE at first. It took multiple blood tests and a sonogram to change my mind. I ruled out hydration, excess protein intake and any other supplement. You can read about this in my thread on AM but the point is, it was the CEE in my case.
I also sought the advice of Sports Theropists and doctors specalizing in Sports medicine.
I would be the first to admit when I'm wrong. I have been corrected many times over the years and am thankful for everyone. That's how we learn. I would ask you to check your motives and information again. We all have a tendency to hear what we want to when we desire a certain out come. Just humor me and entertain the thought of you being incorrect on this issue. This may open up your mind a bit more and allow you to do some real UNBIASED research on this.
I would also offer you this advice, don't be so quick to discreadit the opinions on those who are truely experts in a particualr field. The people I spoke of are experts in bio-chemestry, the human body, and sports medicine and supplementation. Even you could learn from them.
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you are the fool that proclaiming that CEE caused elevated creatinine- so what? its irrellevant. just like it irrellevant that when ships went over the horizon, they were fine too. Going over the horizon just changed thier visual aspect, supplementing CEE just increases creatinine excretion. Niether is evidence of harm, though like the flat planet people, you believe that it is.
it was clearly explained to you.
wont waste time explaining it again.
it was clearly explained to you.
wont waste time explaining it again.
rjet
Always Learning
Your clear explanation was absoluty false. That is why I tried explaining to you the truth. You obviously don't get it. I hope you will do some more research...your reasoning for increased creatinine levels during creatine supplementation not being harmful is based on very, very bad logic and science. Please...talk to the experts about this. I think you will find you are way off base. Go explain your logic to a Sports theoropist, nutritionist, or any doctor of sports medicine and see what they have to say. Maybe you will believe them if you hear it first hand, but some how I doubt it.macro said:
I do agree with you about one thing though, this is a waste of time.
I wish you all the best. God bless...
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G
GetNSwole
Guest
Whose the shitface that gave me bad reputation for kidney issues???? I have natural high blood pressure. The only possible Creatine that doesn't give me even higher BP is Mono.
rjet
Always Learning
They can offer you advice on this topic that will help you understand much more about this issue. I'm refering to people who deal with athletes and supplements all the time, not your average medical doctor. I realize no one in this thread seems to respect their opinion.jcp2 said:
It's your choice.I wish you the best!
BTW, have I personally offended you in some way? Show some maturity and don't make such disrespectful posts. I have not shown you any disrespect and would expect the same courtesy from you.
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rjet said:
well the nephrologists, and human physiology and biochemistry disagree with your assertions. Had a good laugh this weekend at the beach discussing your "doctors" diagnosis. Just so happens that one of the attendees at this improptu function does nephrology research here in san diego. Have known him for a while just never thought to ask what he did. He said he would be more than willing to contact these "doctors" . So please post their names and phones #'s so they can be passed on to him.
as a note- creatinine in bodybuilders and powerlifters 1.6-2.4 is considered normal , not accounting for creatine use. Thats just high muscular weight and protein intake.
